Ammonia problems

HI,

I have a 150gal. tank which has (1)14"RTG, (3)2-3"Silver Dollar, (4)8-10" Freshwater Stingray inside the tank. My Filtration is Canister filter and OHF. The Filter media i am using are wool and ceramic rings. My tank is running for 6 months and i have a problem with my water parameters because my ammonia doesn't stay at zero. I do my water change 3-4 times a week. Stingrays are ammonia sensitive that's why I'm worried with my tank. It's been six months and my ammonia level haven't stabilize to zero. My ammonia level is not that high but i would love to make the ammonia to zero. What are your suggestions to fix my problem?

thanks a lot,

Ric

Some ammonia test kits will register the presence of ammonia even when it's not there. This happens because the products that "remove" ammonia are actually just changing its chemical makeup to render it harmless. The only way that any chemical gets out of the aquarium is through draining some or all of the water. Different ammonia test kits use different reagents, so you may get a different reading from a different type of kit.

On the other hand, some of the fish you have keep substrate materials and waste products pretty well stirred up. A few of the other things that can raise ammonia levels are a too large biological load (usually caused by over crowding or over feeding), insufficient buildup of beneficial bacteria, ammonia in the replacement water (check for it in the tap water), and lack of maintenance. Since you're doing regular, partial water changes, the problem almost has to be ammonia in the tap water or over crowding combined with over feeding. After you check the tap water, try feeding much less for a week or so, and see if the problem is still there. My best guess is that you have too many large fish in a closed environment. Does the aquarium have live plants? They help keep ammonia under control.

I hope some of these ideas at least give you something to think about. Please feel free to ask more questions, and keep us posted.

Hi,

Thanks for your informative reply.

I'm not sure if i do overfeeding because i feed them once a day. I cannot stop feeding even just for a day because if i do miss to feed them, my aro attacks the rays. I've checked the tap water and the water is zero in ammonia.The aquarium doesn't have live plants.

I have a guess that my problem is with the cycle. Before, my aro was just 5" and i only have two 5" rays and my ammonia problem already exists. Then i added two more rays but my problem was the aro keeps on attacking the rays that is why two weeks ago, i put (3)silver dollars to destruct the attention of the aro. Some how the plan worked,but sometimes the aro still attack the rays.

Actually i have two problems;

One, how to drop and stabilize the ammonia to zero.

Two, how to lessen the aggressiveness of the aro.

Thanks a lot for the advise

Was the tank completely cycled before you added fish? If it is not or was not, several products on the market will encourage the growth of beneficial bacteria. The first one that comes to mind is Cycle. Some other products actually contain live bacteria, but they can be killed by extreme temperatures that happen during shipping or warehousing. Floating plants like water sprite or hornwort will actually eat ammonia, so plants may be the best solution to your problem. Of course plants can die and make more waste products. For some reason, if you put in lots of plants, they tend to thrive; start with just a few and they may not survive. Vigorous water turbulence also seems to have a negative effect on floating plants.

With regard to feeding, most aquarists feed twice a day and limit each feeding to no more than the fish can eat in two or three minutes. If they act hungry, they are probably healthy.

I don't have direct experience with the fish species in your aquarium, but I do know that many species are just flat incompatible no matter what the fish store tells you. A single species tank is a good way to start, and it should be followed by the very careful selection of any tank mates. That may be why people like me have too many aquariums.

Finally, you could try a series of larger, partial water changes. Right after a relatively large partial water change, the ammonia level should be lower. If it increases after that, the source has to be something in the aquarium. Are all the decorations, etc., intended specifically for aquarium use? Is all the food really getting eaten? Is the filter too clean or too dirty?

Please keep reporting your progress.

Thanks for your quick response.

As i recall, after i put water into my tank, i let the filtration run for about a week before i placed the fish into the tank.

My tank is crystal clear and my tank setup is just the filtration, i have two air bubbles at both sides of the tank, and the fish species. no substrate, no plants.

I already tried series of water change and after the ammonia dropped to zero after two days, the ammonia will increase again. On my understanding if the tank is well-cycled, the ammonia should ALWAYS be zero.

Based on my experience, Aro and Stingrays are not compatible because the best tankmates for stingrays are stingrays Stingrays are relaxing to watch especially if you are feeding them.

For the past two days, i placed the rain bar higher in order to produce more bubbles in my tank because it's a form of oxygen. will it affect the ammonia level?

Everything in my tank are for aquarium use. And the food are really eaten. I clean the overhead filter once a week and the canister filter once every 2 months. how long is the suggested filter cleaning?

Thanks alot

Maybe we just found the problem. A large aquarium like yours can take more than a month to cycle. With no substrate or plants it certainly can't happen in a week. The only place the beneficial bacteria have to live is in the filter, so you have to be careful when you clean it. For now, there is a product called Eco Complete. It's a gravel substrate that also contains beneficial bacteria. If you don't want to add a substrate, just put the stuff in a few clay pots or one big one. A few plants (live or plastic) in the pot will give the good bacteria more places to live. Better yet, get a few cups of gravel from an established aquarium and put that in the clay pot. Bacteria live in the substrate, plants, decorations, filter media, etc. While you're waiting for the tank to cycle, you will need frequent water changes to control the ammonia and keep the fish healthy.

A few months back I set up a couple of new aquariums and did a regular check of ammonia while they cycled. Both tanks were planted, and both had a cup or so of used gravel in the regular substrate. Most of all, they both had quite a bit of floating hornwort. As reported in the "tips and tricks" section, ammonia remained at zero during the whole process. After about a month, the fish went in; they're still healthy. The moral of the story is try to get a few big gobs of hornwort; it's cheap and you can just toss it if you want after the tank is cycled.

Good luck with the dreaded nitrogen cycle.

PS: Clear water is good, but it doesn't mean the aquarium is a balanced system. And, yes, surface movement helps.

Thanks again for the informative response.

I just want to ask where should i put the substrate? Can it be at the filter box?

My OHF is only about a foot long, Do you recommend upgrading my OHF to a bigger one?

Thanks a lot

A substrate is any material you put on the bottom of the tank. Gravel is the most common one for freshwater aquariums; quite often the gravel is supplemented with a clay based substrate like Flourite or Laterite, which provide minerals for plant growth. Since your aquarium has stingrays, a bare bottom (no substrate) may be the best way to go. To provide a home for live plants you can put the clay pots directly on the bottom of the aquarium. If you're handy at building things, you could make a container from acrylic and install it across an end, side or corner. The acrylic container could then have a simple under gravel filter, gravel/clay substrate and plants. Depending on your design skills, an aquarium decorated like that can be very attractive.

So far as filters go, I'm still living in the 1950s. All of my aquariums have under gravel filters and live plants. If you keep up with partial water changes and gravel cleaning and if you don't over crowd, that low technology setup works just fine. When aquarium keeping goes beyond a hobby, more sophisticated filters are needed.

Please let me know if any of that helps.

I'm sorry if i replied this long. thanks for the info. i'll think about what is the best way and the most attractive way that i can do in order to put that container in my tank.

ok, once i've resolved my problem, i will inform you right away. thanks alot

Welcome to the forum.

I absolutely LOVE Stingrays! I'd love to have a tank of them. I'm just a little over run with tanks currently as it is.

John has already given you some great ideas. I really don't have anything to add.

Could you take some pictures of your tank for us?

And Welcome to the forum!!!

Sorry, it's been a while since i was able to check the site again. I'll upload my pics. Positive and negative opinions are welcome.

Thanks to everyone.

Wow! Those stingrays are awesome. They also appear to be large, so your aquarium could have an over size biological load. Without live plants or a substrate, most of the beneficial bacteria will be in the filter media. If you get it too clean, the bacteria will need to colonise the filter media again.

Yesterday, I read a very good explanation of the nitrogen cycle in the April, 2009 issue of Aquarium Fish International, which is usually for sale in pet stores. Very briefly, the article says that the nitrogen cycle starts when fish and food wastes make ammonia. An aerobic bacteria then converts the ammonia to nitrite, and another aerobic bacteria converts the nitrite to nitrate. Anaerobic bacteria finally convert the nitrate into nitrogen and oxygen. The result in a new aquarium is an initial ammonia spike followed by a nitrite spike followed by equilibrium. Since your aquarium still has ammonia, the cycling process is probably not complete. Both ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish. As I said above, my guess is too many fish and too few beneficial bacteria. The immediate solution seems to be water changes and more places for the beneficial bacteria to colonise.

Good luck, and please keep us posted.

This site shows a planted tank for an arrowana. Now I understand that you can not plant heavy for the sting rays, but what about some sand and a few floating plants. This will really help as with what John is saying. Now instead of all the benefical bacterial being in you filter it is now in your tank. And the floating plants will help reduce it as well.

thanks for all the info that uv given me. I just want to ask about another thing. I have a ready to use fiberglass pond approx. 200gals. Im planning to transfer all my stingrays and add one more female to make it 3female and 2male. Hopefully future breeders=) im gonna use a matala biostep filter with uv. My pump has a high flowrate. Do you think that it will work this time? I feel that in my current tank, the problem is i hve a large bioload and my pump is not that efficient.

I assume you're talking about a preformed plastic pond. Fiberglass may not work so well unless it is coated like a hot tub is. Are you going to plant the pond in the ground or leave it inside? Remember that if you have a UV filter on the pump it can kill the beneficial bacteria. All that probably doesn't help much, and i don't have direct experience with rays, so I looked up this website. It says freshwater rays can be quite a challenge.
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/ freshwater_stingray.html

I would say that when making this 200 gallon "pond" you should really use sand. I saw that you have a glass bottom. It really possibly doesnt matter how big you filter is. If you have a substrate to house the bacteria you are doing a lot better than just using the filter. Like mentioned before, once you clean the filter all the bacteria is gone again and the cycle starts ove. But if you have a substrate than it still thrives in that and your ammonia wont spike or whatever. Personally if it were me, and I was thinking about buying sting rays, but they wouldnt be suited in my tank, I would really put down a substrate. Do a little research about what their type is and what their habitat in the wild is. That should help you more than anything else. You are the only person that I know that has them so we can't say yes, they need this or no they don't. But as for the tank conditions we can say that substrate is a must have for your ammonia problem.
I have to add, not too thick of a substrate, maybe 1/2 an inch depending on the food you are giving.

Sorry, hope that really helps.

Thanks. This is the same fiber glass pond of my friend and i'll also use the same type of fiberglass "pond". One option is to use substrate like sand. is there any other option of substrate? because i think that it will give me harder time to clean the tub. waste and leftover food may hide under the sand and it will also affect the water.

Saltwater sting rays hide in the sand, so it's probably a good idea for freshwater ones too. Pond supply stores sell electrical pumps designed to vacuum up waste materials from pond floors. If you can't find pond supplies locally, check out Drsfostersmith.com. If the sand turns out to be impractical, you can always use pond plants in plastic containers as well as floating plants. That should give the beneficial bacteria some living space.

Every time I see a pond, I want one. Your 200 gallon setup looks big enough for almost anything. It may take more than a month to cycle even with the plants, but after that it should be great. Please send pictures when it's up and running.

I was reading a site and the guy used reagular like eco-complete or flourite red. but that would cost a couple grand to fill that tank. I would really use sand. Its cheap, come in big bags. Can't really complain. I know that there is certain types that you have to watch out for that will harm them. I remember people asking about it on this fourm. Just search it, however you do that.

Wow! That will be awesome when it's finished!

I love sting rays and what AWESOME pictures you have!

I saw some rays at a large pet store in Nashville the other day. They had a gravel substrate. From what I've read, this is NOT the way to go. Sand seems like a good substrate, but honestly, I don't know that it's a good idea.

When I've visited different zoos or displays... The large ponds have NO substrate. Of course they don't have plants either, but I'm thinking to help with the ammonia issues... Potted Pond plants or floating plants would help. Perhaps you could make a rocky cave or a driftwood sculpture type thing with some plants attached. If you got the pond set up and put the plants in, they might be attached by the time it was cycled.

Good Luck!

Sorry for the late reply. thanks for all the informative comments. I'll start the pond setup probably by march. I need to decide what to do with the setup. i'm still thinking other options that i can use for me not to kill the beneficial bacteria besides.

My pond project was can canceled and I've already bought new rays. These new rays were very beautiful which puts me in a situation where i need to have them all. The problem now is that for sure, my ammonia will rise again. for sure i need to upgrade on my filtration.

Filtration does not affect ammonia levels unless the water is really dirty. A colony of beneficial bacteria will take care of the ammonia and nitrite. You can buy some live bacteria that will jump start the process, and you could also float some hornwort or water sprite on top. The plants and the filter media will provide a home for the bacteria.

Sorry about the pond project. Please post more pictures of the rays.

Bummer that the pond project has been canceled.

It looked so exciting!

i thought hornwort was a floating plant. when i google i get this...it this hornwort.

don't you think that the filter does not affect the ammonia? my filter's flow rate is very low. since the fish eats shrimps, the ammonia will most probably get high easily. I'm still looking on what plant or thing to use in order to have live bacteria. can i put plants in my overhead filter?

That doesn't look like any hornwort I've ever seen. I know there's different strains of different types of plants, but that looks totally different.

Different leaf structure and everything...

To r8t8 - The live bacteria lives on every surface in the aquarium... i.e. Even the glass sides... Unless you are constantly wiping them down.

You can buy the live bacteria... It's not cheap, for that size tank.

The live bacteria also colonize in the filter media as well.

I don't think the plants would survive very well in the filter box, they'll need light to live.

I know this is all over the place, but what about just trying some floating plants? Or a driftwood piece with plants attached to it? Just something to let the bacteria colonize in your tank...

That looks like hornwort that was growing at the top of the aquarium before somebody planted the stuff. Planting usually doesn't work. The foliage gets an amber to near red color when it's under bright lights. Most of the time, it's not as dense as one in the picture.

last weekend i bought some plants, lo and behold one of them happens to be hornwort. i didn't even know what i had bought. it came with a weight on it, so i stuck it in the gravel. should i take it out and let it float??