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4 years ago#1
mcg968
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My Betta had begun vertically sinking to the bottom of the bowl whenever he goes up to eat. He spends most of his time at the bottom of the bowl-either sitting vertical with spine bent sideways like a U shape or he will lean against the side of the bowl or plant. When he sees me he comes to the surface to see if I am going to drop him some food and he will move around some but then goes right back to bottom of the bowl. He also has bright white discoloration at the end of his tail fin.

I am not sure whether he needs medication or not. I starved him for 2 days and gave him pieces of cooked pea for a day and half. He still hangs out at the bottom and darts up for air here and there. He is swimming a little better-not so spastic. His appetite seems okay-although he did spit the pea out a couple of times before digesting it. I just want to note that this all started after I changed to a new freeze dried blood worm and was giving him more food and let some food sit in bowl.

I put some bettafix in his bowl and a piece of rock salt. I have been changing out 20-50% of his bowl and cleaning out poop daily-not much poop lately though because I have been starving him. What should I do with my little guy? I have a 3 gallon tank that I would like to switch him to but am afraid it will be too much shock for him right now. Can you also tell me how to transfer him to the new tank. Any advice would be helpful. I have Maracyn II but am not sure if I should use it and don't know how to use it in such a small bowl.

FYI- I used the small bowl water change test and it indicated that the water was okay. I used a quick dip ammonia test yesterday and it showed that the water was not ideal but in the "stress" level. Today the ammonia is in the ideal range. The temp in the bowl is 78 degrees thanks to the heater.

I did a 100% water change 2x over the past 3 weeks and I am wondering if this did the fish in. I now am only doing 20-50% water changes.

Any input would be helpful.

Thank you,
Mary

Posted on Tropical Fish
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4 years ago#2
southern creature
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Hi Mary,
A 100% water change is never a good thing as it will remove all the good bacteria and cause problems with the bowl's/tank's nitrogen cycle.
At this point I'm going to recomend that you read-up on the nitrogen cycle by typing "the nitrogen cycle for beginners" into the search bar at the top of this page.
This will explain the importance of keeping a healthy level of bacteria.
As a result of these BIG water changes, you probably have high amonia and/or nitrIte levels and these are toxic to fish.

Feeding him the peas was a VERY good idea and has probably help him. However I DO NOT recomend addig rock salt to his bowl unless you disslove it (in a jar) 1st. How much salt did you add? Only add 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons.

Please do't try and move him to the new tank yet.
Make sure that there is not any left over salt in his bowl.
Keep doing 20% water changes each day.

NOW to feeding him. Bettas have the tinniest bellies and you should only ever feed him what he can eat straight away, DON'T leave food in the tank for him to eat later. While I don't think the food you were feeding him is bad, it was probably too much and it was probably polluting his bowl.

So keep up 20% daily water changes and only feed him tiny amounts of food and keep an eye on amonia and nitrites.

Best of luck and please keep us posted

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4 years ago#3
mcg968
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Thanks Southern Creature! Since I lowered the water in his bowl so that he can go up for air easier, I only added one single/piece of aquarium salt. A single kernel because his bowl is so low.

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4 years ago#4
southern creature
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Ahhh, sorry I thought that you meant a big rock of salt...sorry!!

Keep up samll partial water changes, daily to every second day and keep an eye on the ammonia.

Is he eating?

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4 years ago#5
mcg968
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He is still hanging out at the bottom of the bowl alot and sitting in a U shape with body bent to his side but he does come up for food or to say hi but he is typically in a vertical position and sinks downwards a lot as if his backside is pulling him down.

He is definitely hungry. I started giving him "JUNGLE" anti-bacterial medicated food because I thought the swimming issue/swim bladder may be bacterial. I just give him one morsel for each feeding. What are your thoughts on this? Someone also mentioned that I should give him "LIFEGUARD" treatment by JUNGLE as this will treat the following:

• Attacks a Broad Range of External Fish Diseases - Bacterial, Fungal, Viral, Parasitic
• Convenient Pre-Measured Tablest - No Guesswork!
• Extremly Effective Against Fungus and Ick
• With Revolutionary New HaloShield - A Non-Antibiotic Agent

They also mentioned Fungus treatment by Jungle.
What are your thoughts on any of this?

I also would like to put more water in his bowl and see how he does with swimming with more water. What is the best way to add more water to his bowl without shocking him?

MCG

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4 years ago#6
Ebrahim
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hello
You should not use more than 1 medication at a time or you could end up stressing him and over medicating which is fatal.
Is his spine bent,does he sit in a u shape only at the bottom or is it a when he swims as well?

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4 years ago#7
mcg
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He sits at the bottom in a vertical position and kind of looks like a hunched over old lady with his spine and head slightly bent forward. At times he sits in a c shape. When he swims he swims mostly vertically upwards and looks like his tail is dragging him down and with a slight forward bend in his spine. He swims horizontally at times but very rarely.

Since I added the Jungle "lifeguard" last night-I didn't see your message til this morning or I wouldn't have given it to him- he has been even more lethargic and moving even less. He seems to have less control over his spine-ie if he is horizontal on the bottom and without support he kind of falls over on his side. He did come up for food today but was not as attentive towards me when I spoke to him and went right back down and is standing vertically against the side of the bowl. He seems worse since the Jungle Lifeguard med. I am worried that this medication is too much for him to handle. What should I do?

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4 years ago#8
Ebrahim
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do partial water changes daily to take the meds out.what size is the tank and does it have a heater?
Also how old is he as older bettas are more susceptable to spinal problems,i know as i a have a 3 year old betta and he doesnt move much(too much effort) and stays at the bottom or on his plants all day.

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4 years ago#9
KJP
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Hi Mary, do you have any gravel, pebbles in the small bowl he's in? Do you have filter there? What I am trying to establish is how can you speed up the cycle of the 5g tank, do you have any chance to get some foam from filter from established tank? I think regardless what tests say the small water volume and easy pollution are adding to his illness - so in my opinion the best would be to transfer him into the new tank. Do avoid him having to swim so much up to the water surface you can decor the tank for now specifically addressing this problem - you can put some biggish terra cotta pot in a way he can sit on top of the pot and get easily to the surface or get some plants (even fake, silk the best) with big leaves and he will find a leaf close the surface. When my Betta was ill I did exactly this and you know they are not stupid, they instinctively know what to do. I think in this case clean nice unpolluted water could be the best remedy. Are you by any chance cycling the new bigger tank now? Discolourations, spitting the food and lethargy are all well known symptoms of ammonia/nitrite presence in the water - I think he will really recover in bigger volume of nice water and he will have so many things to explore and being curious will help him overcome lethargic state as well. That's my opinion. Let us know how's he doing and best of luck!!!

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4 years ago#10
mcg
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Ebrahim,

I have done a partial water treatment each day and am not giving him the "lifeguard" treatment anymore. He is presently in a 1 gallon bowl- I didn't know any better until recently. He has a heater- no filter- in his bowl and the temp is 76-78. The water parameters look good. I have been keeping the lights out to lower his stress level and let him rest. He is about 3 yrs old also and has been hanging out on plants and heater cord at times and I have kept the water to about 6 inches in height so he can get up for air easier. I am pretty sure this all started because of overfeeding him a new brand of freeze dried worms. His stomach is not bloated though so it could be bacterial. He also has a white patch on his tail that looks like someone took whiteout and dabbed it on the end of his tail. When I look with the flashlight though it looks more a pale yellow than white. The circles around his eyes are also really red. Someone mentioned giving him pimafix but I'm really nervous about giving him anything else.

When I heard that I shouldn't be keeping him in a bowl I went out and bought a tank for him but have been afraid the move to another tank would only stress him out further. Also, i have never set up or cycled a tank before. I have some people telling me I don't need to cycle a tank for a betta and other's telling me I do. It's confusing.

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4 years ago#11
mcg
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KASIA,

Hi Mary, do you have any gravel, pebbles in the small bowl he's in? *YES I DO.

Do you have filter there? *Yes I have a filter that came with the "Aqueon 5 Gal Mini Bow" tank I bought him. I do not presently have a filter in his 1 gallon bowl though.


What I am trying to establish is how can you speed up the cycle of the 5g tank, do you have any chance to get some foam from filter from established tank? *He is presently in a bowl so no foam or filter.

I think regardless what tests say the small water volume and easy pollution are adding to his illness - so in my opinion the best would be to transfer him into the new tank. Do avoid him having to swim so much up to the water surface- *I AM WORRIED ABOUT PUTTING HIM INTO THE 5 GALLON TANK BECAUSE THE WATER VOLUME WOULD GO UP SIGNIFICANTLY. I BOUGHT SOME REAL PLANTS i CAN PUT IN THE 5 GAL TANK AND i WILL HAVE TO LOOK FOR A LARGE POT TO PUT IN THERE ALSO FOR HIM TO SIT ON. I HAVE BETTA HAMMOCK AND A FLOATING BETTA LOG I COULD PUT IN THERE. I WILL LOOK FOR SOME SILK PLANTS

Are you by any chance cycling the new bigger tank now?
*I HAVE NEVER CYCLED A TANK BEFORE AND i HEARD IT TAKES WEEKS. I HAVE NEVER EVEN USED A FILTER BEFORE SO THIS IS ALL NEW TO ME. I PUT SOME TREATED WATER IN A TANK 5 DAYS AGO THAT HAS BEEN SITTING THERE BUT NOT BEING FILTERED-I DON'T KNOW IF THAT HELPS ANY. cAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO TO CYCLE THE TANK AND IF I CAN PUT HIM IN THE TANK RIGHT AWAY OR IF I NEED TO WAIT A WHILE. WHEN I DO A WATER CHANGE i COULD PUT HIS OLD ICKY WATER IN THE NEW TANK WITH THE FILTER ON AND MAYBE THE FILTER WILL TAKE ALL THE MEDS OUT.


Discolourations, spitting the food and lethargy are all well known symptoms of ammonia/nitrite presence in the water -* I WISH I KNEW THIS BEFORE. HE HAD ALL OF THOSE SYMPTOMS WEEKS AGO BUT WHEN I SWITCHED TO FREEZE DRIED WORMS HE ATE THEM LIKE CRAZY SO I FIGURED HE WAS OKAY. HOW DO I GET RID OF THE WHITE SPOT ON HIS TAIL-LOOKS LIKE WHITEOUT ON HIS TAIL FIN. SHOULD I STOP THE ANTIBACTERIAL FOOD AND SHOULD I USED ANY OTHER TREATMENTS FOR THE TAIL?SOMEONE TOLD ME TO USE PIMAFIX BUT IM SCARED TO USE ANYTHING ELSE AT THIS POINT. I DISCONTINUED THE "LIFE GUARD" TREATMENT.

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly...

Mary
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4 years ago#12
arjunrocks
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*I HAVE NEVER CYCLED A TANK BEFORE AND i HEARD IT TAKES WEEKS. I HAVE NEVER EVEN USED A FILTER BEFORE SO THIS IS ALL NEW TO ME. I PUT SOME TREATED WATER IN A TANK 5 DAYS AGO THAT HAS BEEN SITTING THERE BUT NOT BEING FILTERED-I DON'T KNOW IF THAT HELPS ANY. cAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO TO CYCLE THE TANK AND IF I CAN PUT HIM IN THE TANK RIGHT AWAY OR IF I NEED TO WAIT A WHILE. WHEN I DO A WATER CHANGE i COULD PUT HIS OLD ICKY WATER IN THE NEW TANK WITH THE FILTER ON AND MAYBE THE FILTER WILL TAKE ALL THE MEDS OUT.

hey when i had to cycle the bowl i started with, i asked the store owner to give me two handful of gravel from his well established tank and i paid him for them in return.
the water they put the fish in for carrying the fish also helps. you can also borrow water from a well established tank in your neighborhood.
the gravel act as seeds for the colonies of good bacteria you will need in your new gravel.
my bowl took less than a week to cycle.
best of luck.

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4 years ago#13
mcg
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tHANKS ARJUNROCKS! Thats a great idea! I will ask one of the people at petsmart or somewhere if they can give me some of their gravel from a well established tank as I only have a small amount in my Betta's fishbowl. Does the gravel have to be from specific fresh water fish or any fish will do?

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4 years ago#14
mcg
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Southern Creature,

Yes, he is eating. I have still been giving him the antibacterial food-just one crystal 2x a day. He is on no other meds.

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4 years ago#15
KJP
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In my opinion he is unwell because of the fluctuations of water parameters due to small water volume. Even if the 5g tank is not cycled - you will not be the first or last person to cycle the tank with the fish already in. If you're strict with pwc during first few weeks, get all the tests etc you can cycle. As already said and I was also suggesting was get some filter foam or gravel from established (cycled tank) so it is seeded with beneficial bacteria. Any tropical tank will do - what you want are the bacterial colonies as already arjunrockes said.

How is he now? Is he very lethargic. White tail is just cosmetic for the moment. When you switch him to 5g tank and he will get used to it - you can try pimafix and melafix - both safe for bacteria and very good herbal medicines. You can also use now API stress coat (contains aloe vera) and stress cycle to speed up the cycle. Also tetra makes bactozym capsules (cheap and quite good) put one capsule with the filter media and it will help seed the filter. How is his belly? Do not feed him any freeze dried food - I would even say like never ever. You can feed Hikari betta pellets, any other pellets, soaked so not dry, brine shrimp but not dry those that come in some sort of jelly I am not who makes them, many brands I suppose.

What does manufacturer say about how long to treat with antibiotics. Betta are a little bit sensitive so half doses are usually good solution. I would say finish the course of antibiotic, switch him to the tank and monitor water there carefully until the tank is cycled. You need testes (liquid, API master kit is recommended by many, I have tetra and I am happy) - you need ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, pH could be good as well but not critical. What you can also get is ammonia alert (seachem) but it is not a substitute for ammonia liquid test! Ammonia and nitrite are killers, very very toxic, you need to monitor water daily and when you see their levels are up - do a pwc well larger pwc, as in my opinion while cycling you should ideally do pwc (15-20%) daily, if the toxins spike a lot - 30% to dilute them.

Never ever rinse gravel or filter foam/media in tap water, but in just removed during pwc tank water. Water should be treated with conditioner and of roughly similar temp as the tank water, so 27-28oC for betta.

You can get betta spa or catappa leaves (indian almond leaves) they contain tannins and betta love them, also they leak those tannins and by this help with healing acting aseptically.

You will be fine, and he will recover. I think he is not overly ill, just water issue. Good practice is to get one day per week as fasting day (Fri for example). Either do not feed at all or feed only boiled de-shelled pea. Pellets can be soaked in tank water or liquid supplements. I have one with vitamins and one with spirulina My Betta is very spoiled LOL. Feel free to ask us what ever is unclear or whenever you're not sure what/how to do.

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4 years ago#16
mcg
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Kasia,

Thanks so much! He is still lethargic but will sometimes come up for air or food when he see's me. He doesn't have to swim very far because the water is only about 5 inches high right now- so he can get to top easier. I will put normal amount of water in the new tank.

Antibacterial food anufacturer says to treat for 5-10 days as needed and to give as much food as fish will eat at each meal. I have only been giving him 1-2 pellets 2x a day. Today is his 6th day on meds.

His doesn't look bloated. He has a little yellow streak on one of his fins and some whitish stuff on his underbelly just below his gills. He is also discolored.

As far as temp I have been keeping it at 76-78. His heater is automatic and shuts off at that temp. I noticed you said the temp should be 27-28 C which I believe is 80 Fahrenheit. I will have to get a new heater if I want to keep him warmer. Everyone tells me a 50watt is too strong for a 5 gallon so that is why I stuck with the 25 but it only goes up to 78 F.

I have test sticks for nitrite, nitrate, ph, ammonia, chlorine...are these no good? I also, now, have an ammonia indicator wheel in his bowl to let me know if ammonia goes up. What do I do if PH goes up or down? Water is also very soft and acidic or close to it most of the time. Not sure if I need to address that.

What brand of food do you give your little spoiled guy?

I wish I would have known about the not rinsing gravel in tap. I did that a few weeks ago and his water was really cloudy so I had changed 100 percent of the water again to fix it. Maybe that did him in...I cleaned all of his new gravel in the new tank in tap water. Is this going to hurt him? Should I do something else to fix it?

Should I start feeding him normal food or should I just give him peas and starve a day or two then peas again? He is still swimming vertically and has arched spine.


Thanks to everyone for all of your kindness and help. It means a lot to me. I wish that I would have known more about Betta's when I got my little guy. I, like many, are clueless about how to treat a fish. Mostly because of ignorance and also improper guidance from pet store staff. Now that I understand better I really am very upset with myself for having unintentionally been mistreating my little guy. Hopefully he will recover.

Mary

UPDATE-5:57 pm EST I just got a handful of used gravel-pretty dirty looking with black slime/water mixed in with it-from the local tropical fish store. Hmm..wondering how clean they keep their tanks and if it's safe to use this stuff. Is it okay to use this stuff? I also bought a new heater that will go up to 80F an API test kit and terra cotta pot. I have some live annubia and silk plants also.

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4 years ago#17
mcg
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I just got a handful of used gravel from a local tropical fish store. How much do I need? I have a bunch of new gravel in the tank but is a handful of used gravel enough to help cycle a 5 gallon and can I use used gravel from multiple resources or does it all have to come from the same tank? Also, the tanks at the tropical fish store all share a water line and so do the tanks at Petsmart. Is this a problem or is it okay to use gravel from a tank that shares water with multiple tanks?

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4 years ago#18
gbose
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McG,

You can use gravel from multiple sources.Normally, I'd say be careful of gravel from a fish store, but you're in an emergency situation. I suggest:

Set up the tank, with filter and gravel.
Add water and dechlorinator (don't forget this)
Install heater as well.
Add Betta.
Do daily 25-50% water changes.
Test your water for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates daily. Use a liquid test kit(s). Do a 50% water change immediately if ammonia or nitrites come near 0.25PPM or nitrates cross 20PPM
Feed only moderately.

Good luck!

GB

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4 years ago#19
arjunrocks
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mcg wrote:
I just got a handful of used gravel from a local tropical fish store. How much do I need? I have a bunch of new gravel in the tank but is a handful of used gravel enough to help cycle a 5 gallon and can I use used gravel from multiple resources or does it all have to come from the same tank? Also, the tanks at the tropical fish store all share a water line and so do the tanks at Petsmart. Is this a problem or is it okay to use gravel from a tank that shares water with multiple tanks?


It should be from a freshwater aquarium.
A handful of gravel is enough. Though the more the better. There is no problem with multiple sources. just make sure the tank you are borrowing gravel from is uninfected. when cycling a tank, do not use products that kill bacteria as this will kill the useful bacteria in your tank as well.
And feed your fish some mashed boiled or frozen peas weekly which will keep swim bladder problems and loss of appetite at bay.
Happy To Help
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4 years ago#20
mcg968
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Hi guys. My little guy is still around and dragging his tail end.

I have not yet transferred him to the 5 gallon tank because I am worried that I will kill him by mistake. I have never cycled a tank before and would like to cycle it fishless so it's prepared before I put him in.

The tank is all set up and has been sitting for a week. I put dechlorinator in the water, have the heat set to 80, and have added some used gravel from another fishtank. I also squeezed out the filterpad from a used tank and put that water in the tank also. The gravel did have some algae on it. Is that okay? If not, let me know and I will start all over.

My question is this. What is the best way to complete a fishless cycle in a freshwater tank-5 gal? Do I used Ammonia? Do I make water changes? I put a couple pieces of fishfood in the tank just to see what would happen. I have not seen an ammonia spike at all but the nitrites are up a little.

Any input or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

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4 years ago#21
mcg968
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Hi guys. My little guy is still around and dragging his tail end.

I have not yet transferred him to the 5 gallon tank because I am worried that I will kill him by mistake. I have never cycled a tank before and would like to cycle it fishless so it's prepared before I put him in.

The tank is all set up and has been sitting for a week. I put dechlorinator in the water, have the heat set to 80, and have added some used gravel from another fishtank. I also squeezed out the filterpad from a used tank and put that water in the tank also. The gravel did have some algae on it. Is that okay? If not, let me know and I will start all over.

My question is this. What is the best way to complete a fishless cycle in a freshwater tank-5 gal? Do I used Ammonia? Do I make water changes? I put a couple pieces of fishfood in the tank just to see what would happen. I have not seen an ammonia spike at all but the nitrites are up a little.

Any input or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

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3 years ago#22
arjunrocks
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You can use ammonia if you can. Well i started with platies which could bear the cycling easily.
you got a rise in nitrite probably because there were enough bacteria to convert ammonia into nitrites. so this is good news. Well I am not experienced with fish-less cycling so I hope someone among us may know better.
Good Luck

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3 years ago#23
southern creature
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You are doing everything fine for a fishless cycle.

Since you added the live bacteria from another filter, I recomend that you don't add ammonia. The fish food that you added will be good food for the bacteria and this will get things going. Maybe add a pinch more in a couple of days.

Don't do any water changes, they will slow the cycling down, by removing bacteria.

arjunrocks is probably right about why you've missed any ammonia spike, you will have good bacteria levels because you added live bacteria. This good bacteria most likely converted the ammonia to nitrite very quickly.

It really sounds like everything is going fine!!

Do you have the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings, so you can post them on here for us?

BTW the algae on the pebbles is not an issue, I reckon it would look good, but that's me.

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3 years ago#24
mcg
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I just took a reading and Nitrite is between .50-1, Nitrate is 0, and ammonia is 0.

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3 years ago#25
mcg
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I just took a reading and Nitrite is between .50-1, Nitrate is 0, and ammonia is 0.

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3 years ago#26
johnarthur
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The nitrite spike is usually the final step in establishing a working nitrogen cycle. When both nitrite and ammonia reach zero and stay there for a couple of days, you can assume the nitrogen cycle is working.

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3 years ago#27
mcg
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I just took a reading and Nitrite is between .50-1, Nitrate is 0, and ammonia is 0.

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3 years ago#28
mcg
Guest

How do I know the cycle even started though when there was never an ammonia spike?

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3 years ago#29
CaddoCoolness
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I see its been a while since anyone has posted. I'm learning a lot from reading the questions and replies. How is your fish? Have you put him in the larger thank yet?

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2 years ago#30
ally
Guest

Gosh Mary I really feel for ya I have a Betta and he acts sick ive done everything for him what should I do

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